如果蒙古留在中国,它的命运会如何
2019-08-10 lxlewis 38029
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原文地址:https://historum.com/threads/the-fate-of-mongolia-if-it-remains-part-of-china.179059/
正文翻译
原创翻译:龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com 翻译:lxlewis 转载请注明出处
论坛地址:http://www.ltaaa.com/bbs/thread-488102-1-1.html



Futurist: What would Mongolia's fate during the 20th and 21st centuries have been had it remained part of China? Would it have become Sinified as a result of large-scale movement of Han Chinese settlers into Xinjiang? Would there have been any other significant effects on Mongolia?

Po主:如果蒙古仍然是中国的一部分,那么它在20世纪和21世纪的命运会如何?它会不会因为汉人大规模迁入而被汉化呢?留在中国是否会对蒙古产生任何其他重大影响?
评论翻译
原创翻译:龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com 翻译:lxlewis 转载请注明出处
论坛地址:http://www.ltaaa.com/bbs/thread-488102-1-1.html

评论1: Swamp Booger: Mongolian beef would be called Beijing beef.

蒙古牛肉会被称为北京牛肉。

Futurist: LOL! :D Even if Mongolia would have been part of China, it would have still been separated from Beijing by a relatively long distance.

哈哈哈!即使蒙古是中国的一部分,它仍然会与北京保持分开,因为它们相对较远的距离。

Swamp Booger: LOL! Just kidding. Probably not much would have changed. Mongolia was a communist nation until the early 1990s, not much change then being part of communist China. Probably not much in the way of industrialization either, since Mongolia has nothing to industrialize. It would probably be one of many undeveloped provincial backwaters of China similar to the Western Mohammedan provinces.

哈哈!开个玩笑。可能不会有太大的改变吧。直到20世纪90年代初,蒙古还是一个GC主义国家,如果当时作为中国的一部分,它的变化应该不大。蒙古可能也没有太多工业化的道路,因为蒙古没有什么可工业化的。它可能是中国许多落后的省份之一,类似于西部的少数民族省份。



MG1962a: Probably all that would change is a lot more of the land would be under cultivation. And the mining boon would have started a lot sooner. A little piece of trivia. Mongolia up until a couple of years ago was the only place left in the world using dredging to mine gold.

可能改变的仅仅是更多的土地会变成可耕地,矿业的繁荣会更早地开始。一个小轶事:直到几年前,蒙古还是世界上唯一一个还使用疏浚的方法来开采黄金的地方。

Futurist: So, no significant changes in Mongolian demographics?

那么,蒙古的人口结构不会有显著的变化吗?

MG1962a: Who would notice. The place has a population density nearly half that of western Kansas. Once you get outside the capital, you have 2 million people spread across an area the size of Alaska.

谁会关注这个呢?这个地方的人口密度几乎是西堪萨斯州的一半。在首都之外,只有200万人散布在阿拉斯加那么大的地区。

deaf tuner: I have doubts. You could check Taiwan and Tibet changes in ethnic dynamics.

我对此还是有疑问的。你可以参考台湾和西藏在民族动态方面的变化。

Futurist: Tibet is still over 90% ethnically Tibetan, though.

不过,西藏仍有超过90%的藏族人。

deaf tuner: I did say "changes". I was referring to evolution in time. So, just give it a bit more time.

我说了"改变",我指的是随着时间进化。所以,得再给它一点时间。



YouLoveMeYouKnowIt: Much more developed than Outer Mongolia. The GDP per capita in Inner Mongolia is among the highest in China.

比外蒙古发达得多。内蒙古是中国人均GDP最高的地区之一。

评论5: YouLoveMeYouKnowIt: The truth is not that you have to be either Chinese or Mongolian: Chinese is a supranational identity under which the Han, Manchu, and Mongol ethnic identities, among others, coexist. We should not toss out centuries of political traditions and look at the past seven decades as something more natural. Inner and Outer Mongolia were both regions of the Qing Empire. It just happens so one side become independent/puppet (to USSR) and the other remained part of the successor state of the Qing Empire (the People's Republic). Being on the Chinese side does not mean a diluting Mongol blood, culture, identity, arts, music, etc... Being on the independent side does not mean a new height for Mongol culture.

事实并不是说你必须要么是中国人,要么是蒙古人:中国人是一个超越国家的身份,在这个身份下,汉族、满族和蒙古族等民族身份共存。我们不应该抛弃几个世纪以来的政治传统,而把过去70年的进程看作是更自然的事情。内蒙古和外蒙古都是属于清朝的地区,然后事情的发展是:一方(蒙古)独立成为(苏联的)傀儡,而另一方仍然是清朝的继承国(中华人民共和国)的一部分。站在中国一边并不意味着稀释蒙古的血液、文化、身份、艺术、音乐等,而独立也并不意味着蒙古文化达到了一个新的高度。

Futurist: That's an argument in favor of multi-ethnic states in general, no? For instance, keeping the Soviet unx, Austria-Hungary, and the Ottoman Empire intact, keeping British India united after independence, et cetera.

这是一个支持多民族国家的论点,对吗?例如,保持苏联、奥匈帝国和奥斯曼帝国的完整,使英属印度在独立后保持团结,等等。

YouLoveMeYouKnowIt: No.I am just stating the reality of China. It is what it is. China is multiethnic. It just is. That reality on its own has no assertion on should have happened to British India, OE, USSR or Austria-Hungary and I make no assertion or argument either. Similarly, asserting the fact that Japan is an ethnostate is not arguing for keeping Nazi Germany.

不,我只是在陈述关于中国的事实,中国是一个多民族的国家,事实就是如此。这种事实本身并没有断言说它也会发生在英属印度、苏联或奥匈帝国,我也不做任何断言或论证。同样,断言日本是一个民族国家,也并不是主张保留纳粹德国。

Futurist: Makes sense. BTW, do you think that China should get Tawang and Kokang back? Also, how many people do you think that Mongolia can sustain? FTR, I'm only talking about Outer Mongolia here.

有道理。顺便问一下,你认为中国应该把达旺和果敢收回来吗?另外,你认为蒙古能养活多少人?我是指外蒙古。

YouLoveMeYouKnowIt: I'd prefer to see a China with the territory of the Qing Empire at its height, along with a couple of Arctic, Antarctic, Lunar and Martial permanent settlements. Maybe Kokang and Tawang are included within these borders. But my want and opinion doesn't matter. I am not sure how many Mongolia could sustain, but as a landlocked, low income country and at the mercy of two Asian giants, it is very disadvantaged and may not be able to develop too much without direct rule or autonomous government taking orders from Beijing.

我更希望看到一个领土处于清朝的鼎盛时期的中国,另外同时拥有一些北极、南极、月球和永久军事基地,也许果敢和达旺也包括在这些边界之内。但我的想法和意见并不重要。我不确定蒙古能养活多少人,但作为一个地处内陆的低收入国家,在两个亚洲大国的支配下,蒙古处于非常不利的地位,如果没有北京的直接统治或成为接受北京领导的自治政府,蒙古可能无法取得太大的发展。

deaf tuner: Question : why "direct rule", "taking orders"?

为什么要“直接统治”或“接受领导”?



deaf tuner: Why will it fare better as a province than as an independent state?

为什么它作为一个省会比作为一个独立国家表现得更好呢?

YouLoveMeYouKnowIt: I just stated. Because it will be Chinese and part of China, and thus ruled by and transcended by China instead of being left alone. Building projects, infrastructure projects. Inner Mongolia is way ahead of Mongolia.

我刚说过了。因为他们是中国人和中国的一部分,因此会被中国统治,而不是被孤立。建筑项目,基础设施项目方面,内蒙古远远领先于蒙古。

Futurist: Well, Mongolia could receive a lot of Chinese subsidies if it would be a part of China proper.

如果蒙古是中国的一部分,它可以得到很多中国的补贴。
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